Rumsfeld FIRED
#31
11-09-2006, 06:17 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
ORIGINAL: Palindari
Guys, every occupation - and that's what we are doing now in Iraq - is a costly effort both in money and lives.
Here's a quick history lesson...
After WWII there were still German holdouts thinking the 3rd Riech would rise again. Almost 40,000 more Americans died due to further fighting "after" the signed surrender. We would be delusional to believe that this will be different.
Another footnote - though ANY lose of life is tragic and unacceptable and this is NOT an excuse for the war (personally, I feel it was wrong) - let's look at this from another perspective.
Every President has never had a perfect administration - some do more problems and cost more lives than others... Kennedy and Johnson got us in Vietnam - Nixon pulled us out and we lost just over 47,000 lives in 90 months (that's roughly 522 a month).
So far, in Iraq, we have lost just over 2800 in 44 months (that's about 64 a month) ...
Perhaps it will take a Democratic president to take us out of this one this time...
We all know Iraq was a bad idea that never should have happened and that Bush is a functional illiterate, but hopefully Rumsfeld's much anticipated departure will be a good sign that things will change...
ORIGINAL: pturbo
Anyway, you can't have peace until you kill the enemy. If you want to discuss "peace" with Islamic terrorists, you are wasting your time. It's either kill them(and I mean level Sadr City and probably some Sunni areas as well if you have to) or let them have the damn place. The press just freaks out if you do something like Falluja, where we decided to kill a bunch of the bastards, but the press never won a war either. It is great at helping lose wars though. We didn't win WWII by pulling up because "it's not nice to kill people" every time we got the Germans or Japanese on the run. No one has ever won a war that way. We won back public opinion after the enemy is destroyed and the population was actually 100% dependant on us for its very survival. It's a waste of time and blood to try to win public opinion while you are still fighting street to street.
So that's why I was agreeing with his "actually do something or get out" plan.
Anyway, you can't have peace until you kill the enemy. If you want to discuss "peace" with Islamic terrorists, you are wasting your time. It's either kill them(and I mean level Sadr City and probably some Sunni areas as well if you have to) or let them have the damn place. The press just freaks out if you do something like Falluja, where we decided to kill a bunch of the bastards, but the press never won a war either. It is great at helping lose wars though. We didn't win WWII by pulling up because "it's not nice to kill people" every time we got the Germans or Japanese on the run. No one has ever won a war that way. We won back public opinion after the enemy is destroyed and the population was actually 100% dependant on us for its very survival. It's a waste of time and blood to try to win public opinion while you are still fighting street to street.
So that's why I was agreeing with his "actually do something or get out" plan.
Here's a quick history lesson...
After WWII there were still German holdouts thinking the 3rd Riech would rise again. Almost 40,000 more Americans died due to further fighting "after" the signed surrender. We would be delusional to believe that this will be different.
Another footnote - though ANY lose of life is tragic and unacceptable and this is NOT an excuse for the war (personally, I feel it was wrong) - let's look at this from another perspective.
Every President has never had a perfect administration - some do more problems and cost more lives than others... Kennedy and Johnson got us in Vietnam - Nixon pulled us out and we lost just over 47,000 lives in 90 months (that's roughly 522 a month).
So far, in Iraq, we have lost just over 2800 in 44 months (that's about 64 a month) ...
Perhaps it will take a Democratic president to take us out of this one this time...
We all know Iraq was a bad idea that never should have happened and that Bush is a functional illiterate, but hopefully Rumsfeld's much anticipated departure will be a good sign that things will change...
#32
11-09-2006, 06:34 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
ORIGINAL: bluovalguy
Good info, but if you are gonna quote death tolls, then you need to also look at the number of injuries this time around that would have resulted in death in past wars had we not had the safefy crap we do now. Using the data like you are there kinda skews the true picture.
Good info, but if you are gonna quote death tolls, then you need to also look at the number of injuries this time around that would have resulted in death in past wars had we not had the safefy crap we do now. Using the data like you are there kinda skews the true picture.
But lets look at those too...
Vietnam - US casualties (non fatal) 211,471 - that's 2350 per month roughly
Iraq - US caualties (non fatal) 44,779 - that's 102 per month roughly
That's an even better percentage than the death toll comparisons.
Currently Iraq War loses mount up to 12.2% of those incurred during Vietnam
Currnetly Iraq War casualities mount up to 4.3% of those incurred during Vietnam
Every war we have learned to kill better and more efficiently from the last and with medical improvements more survive as well. Again these figures presented are not to condone this war - just another perspective is all.
Refs:
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ies_of_war.htm
http://icasualties.org/oif/
#33
11-09-2006, 06:52 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
Ok, guess I didnt clarify that to well. My bad. What I meant was the number of people who are hit, and would have been killed in past wars, but are unscathed now, i.e. the guy who takes a round to the chest, or catches schrapnel, but is not wounded cuz of body armor.
Those situations are not counted in the statistics, and believe me, they happen every day.
Those situations are not counted in the statistics, and believe me, they happen every day.
#34
11-09-2006, 07:12 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
Yes, I am aware of that, Blu. Retired Army sergeant here 
But my point is this, at this point in time for all the ranting and raving of zealot Bushbeaters - focusing on the war is pointless. Because if the rallying cry is "unnecessary loss of life" then in 2002, 42,815 people died nationally from driving on the highways here...
That's 3,568 a month... that's an astounding 6.8x more loses than in Vietnam and 55.7x more than those currently in Iraq.
So, Blu, you're at greater risk than you're fellow soldier, mate - and that's including all that "safety crap" our Audi's carry with them
But my point is this, at this point in time for all the ranting and raving of zealot Bushbeaters - focusing on the war is pointless. Because if the rallying cry is "unnecessary loss of life" then in 2002, 42,815 people died nationally from driving on the highways here...
That's 3,568 a month... that's an astounding 6.8x more loses than in Vietnam and 55.7x more than those currently in Iraq.
So, Blu, you're at greater risk than you're fellow soldier, mate - and that's including all that "safety crap" our Audi's carry with them
#35
11-09-2006, 07:20 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
Hey Blueovalguy. You said your going on your third tour.. Good luck I mean that as serious for you, as I do for the friends and family I have in the military/Iraq.
If anybody has room to talk about what should and should not happen over there is a person such as yourself, my brother, and my 3 freinds that are there right now. They say the samething as you. They would much rather see a a flooding of our troops, then have us back out. And they certainly don't want us to be continuing our current course of action. My bro thinks leaving with-out, a defining victory would be shame, as he has had 5 people during his 2 tours killed near by. He thinks they deserve to have died for a reason.
If anybody has room to talk about what should and should not happen over there is a person such as yourself, my brother, and my 3 freinds that are there right now. They say the samething as you. They would much rather see a a flooding of our troops, then have us back out. And they certainly don't want us to be continuing our current course of action. My bro thinks leaving with-out, a defining victory would be shame, as he has had 5 people during his 2 tours killed near by. He thinks they deserve to have died for a reason.
#36
11-09-2006, 08:04 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
ORIGINAL: Palindari
Yes, I am aware of that, Blu. Retired Army sergeant here
But my point is this, at this point in time for all the ranting and raving of zealot Bushbeaters - focusing on the war is pointless. Because if the rallying cry is "unnecessary loss of life" then in 2002, 42,815 people died nationally from driving on the highways here...
That's 3,568 a month... that's an astounding 6.8x more loses than in Vietnam and 55.7x more than those currently in Iraq.
So, Blu, you're at greater risk than you're fellow soldier, mate - and that's including all that "safety crap" our Audi's carry with them
Yes, I am aware of that, Blu. Retired Army sergeant here
But my point is this, at this point in time for all the ranting and raving of zealot Bushbeaters - focusing on the war is pointless. Because if the rallying cry is "unnecessary loss of life" then in 2002, 42,815 people died nationally from driving on the highways here...
That's 3,568 a month... that's an astounding 6.8x more loses than in Vietnam and 55.7x more than those currently in Iraq.
So, Blu, you're at greater risk than you're fellow soldier, mate - and that's including all that "safety crap" our Audi's carry with them
I was not try to bushbash, but I do believe that we do need a change of direction. We can go back on forth with numbers all day long, but in the end we still wind up with a slowly creeping upward death toll, and not much focus or direction as to where we are headed. I understand that is never easy to occupy a foriegn land, and I understand that people are gonna die, but if 3 years of the current stategy of "Stay the course" has done nothing, then what exactly is the course that we are staying?? I want to win over there, I have a couple years of my life invested in it, not to mention losing a few of my friends there, but if we want to win then we need to admit that the current plan is **** and send in some more troops, like Gen. Shinsecki (sp) told Rummy in the very begining.
#37
11-09-2006, 08:15 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
I feel ya, mate. A friend of mine lost his lower limbs from an IED. Having done my time, I stayed away when they called me back for the 2nd go round there.
From day 1 Rummy never had a clue what it woud take to get the job done. Had a long discussion with some old Army buddies that were gearing up for Iraq and we all knew then that what was being done was a strike force operation - not an occupancy campaign.
You can walk into a man's house - torch it and walk away telling him he's better off now than before.
But honestly, we are in territory that is more foriegn than we know. Extremeist are just that - extreme. Extreme in their views, beliefs and convictions. Only age softens a sword. Right now, we're targets of their misdirect hatred.
I say let McDonalds, 7/11 and Walmart move in and set up shop. They'll be capitalist pigs in no time...
From day 1 Rummy never had a clue what it woud take to get the job done. Had a long discussion with some old Army buddies that were gearing up for Iraq and we all knew then that what was being done was a strike force operation - not an occupancy campaign.
You can walk into a man's house - torch it and walk away telling him he's better off now than before.
But honestly, we are in territory that is more foriegn than we know. Extremeist are just that - extreme. Extreme in their views, beliefs and convictions. Only age softens a sword. Right now, we're targets of their misdirect hatred.
I say let McDonalds, 7/11 and Walmart move in and set up shop. They'll be capitalist pigs in no time...
#38
11-09-2006, 08:26 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
ORIGINAL: Palindari
I say let McDonalds, 7/11 and Walmart move in and set up shop. They'll be capitalist pigs in no time...
I say let McDonalds, 7/11 and Walmart move in and set up shop. They'll be capitalist pigs in no time...
Besides, what company wants to try to open up shop with a bunch of jihadis running around calling them "the great satan"? Who wants to eat at a McDonalds that is the constant target of a-hole suicide bombers? The food is already bad enough.
There really isn't a "toe in the water" option with fighting Islamic terrorists. It is either pursue them aggressively and kill them faster than they can reproduce or get out. That is no different than fighting ***** or any other ideological enemy. The Japanese were every bit as radical as the Islamic whackos and had the same lack of respect for human life. We killed them until they said "Ok, we won't be like that any more" and they haven't been that way since. This was not accomplished using the State Dept and having discussions with the Japanese about "why they hate us". The 5G warfare in Iraq and elsewhere is different from previous conflicts, but some things remain a constant. There is no peace without victory.
#39
11-09-2006, 08:43 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
wow, this one could go on for a while.
i think we can all at least agree that iraq has gone horribly wrong since the "mission accomplished" speech. now we need a clear direction for what we do next, and i don't think rumsfeld really had much to offer other than, "stay the course."
i think we can all at least agree that iraq has gone horribly wrong since the "mission accomplished" speech. now we need a clear direction for what we do next, and i don't think rumsfeld really had much to offer other than, "stay the course."
#40
11-09-2006, 08:52 PM
RE: Rumsfeld FIRED
ORIGINAL: pturbo
It worked in Eastern Europe, but it won't work with these guys. [>:]
Besides, what company wants to try to open up shop with a bunch of jihadis running around calling them "the great satan"? Who wants to eat at a McDonalds that is the constant target of a-hole suicide bombers? The food is already bad enough.
There really isn't a "toe in the water" option with fighting Islamic terrorists. It is either pursue them aggressively and kill them faster than they can reproduce or get out. That is no different than fighting ***** or any other ideological enemy. The Japanese were every bit as radical as the Islamic whackos and had the same lack of respect for human life. We killed them until they said "Ok, we won't be like that any more" and they haven't been that way since. This was not accomplished using the State Dept and having discussions with the Japanese about "why they hate us". The 5G warfare in Iraq and elsewhere is different from previous conflicts, but some things remain a constant. There is no peace without victory.
It worked in Eastern Europe, but it won't work with these guys. [>:]
Besides, what company wants to try to open up shop with a bunch of jihadis running around calling them "the great satan"? Who wants to eat at a McDonalds that is the constant target of a-hole suicide bombers? The food is already bad enough.
There really isn't a "toe in the water" option with fighting Islamic terrorists. It is either pursue them aggressively and kill them faster than they can reproduce or get out. That is no different than fighting ***** or any other ideological enemy. The Japanese were every bit as radical as the Islamic whackos and had the same lack of respect for human life. We killed them until they said "Ok, we won't be like that any more" and they haven't been that way since. This was not accomplished using the State Dept and having discussions with the Japanese about "why they hate us". The 5G warfare in Iraq and elsewhere is different from previous conflicts, but some things remain a constant. There is no peace without victory.
Yes, they are both a problem that requires military might to counteract - but a political movement (Nazism) and a religious belief system (Islamic Extremism) are completely different and thus require different approaches. It is easy for a movement to lose steam, but not so with those with religious convictions.
Throughout history, you will never find more bloodier and longer duration battles than those with a religious cause behind it.
The "nuke'm til they glow" tactic never works in this situation - you only create martyrs and you can't kill a dead guy again...