Hey now, I never accused you of being sentient.

You seem to be defending something that is fairly indefensible. My guess is that there is some personal axe being ground here that you haven't shared.

In another post you claim:

I had a "white" person complain to me once about the discrimination he experienced while in a "black" neighborhood. This person lives in an almost exclusively "white" gated community in Utah. He didn't seem to get the fact that he was discriminated against by one person, one event, once in his life (and quite frankly, his complaint was laughable). Until you actually know some black folks, maybe spend some time with them, you will never see the discrimination they experience on an almost daily basis. You claim you are not biased, but then you make elaborate excuses or conjecture on why this person you don't even know isn't being "racist". Your bias is that you would like to judge people that you don't know, have never spent *any* time with, an then expect not to be called out for your own discrimination, however veiled you believe it to be.

Jazz got it right, however:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

 

I don't know, Gordo... Santayana sounds like a non-white name. I don't think they're gonna accept anything he says as being non-discriminatory against Whites.

AutoUnion has issues with the neighborhoods he's forced to live in, in the B-Mo area, because of all the discrimination that goes on there, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but I believe that is the gist.


Anthropologically, this sort of daily, subverted, constant, unseen "bias" is referred to as Mother Culture. Out of necessity born of events well past *I* exist in *Yours,* quite well, actually; and yet, I have my own (well, in my case multiples) that I also exist in and honor. If the culture we live in were a blanket I would be sweltering.

This *bias* is pervasive, and mostly served unintentionally by those who have no understanding of how it works. Ever watch the TV show Cops, and see some person snap, and totally go off on a police officer trying to write them a simple traffic ticket? Ever see a non-White do it, and drive away at the end of the encounter? Better yet, ever see a non-White do it, regardless of teh outcome? Know why?

 

because censors don't like non-whites?

on that subject ( I laugh at this after some comedian pointed it out) Ever seen a non-white burglar or attacker on a security system commercial? They are ALWAYS white. So funny how the world operates.

 

History can speak for itself, the discrimination against black people is well documented and unfortunate to say the least.

But to the point, this is not really discrimination against a race as it is in favor of a race. We have things like BET, NAACP, affirmative action, historical black colleges etc. All of which are accepted in society as redemption for past wrongs. But that doesnt mean that they are not discrimanatory. Our society has chosen discrimination as a way to cure discrimination. A white only basketball league would not impact black society (except for promoting discrimination). This is the subtle nature of what I am saying. It is similar to having a rap school for white people. I wouldnt call that a racist act.

You may think that I am defending Moose (in some ways I am) but I have said numerous times that I dont think its a good idea. One could argue that whites have the same opportunity to make it in the NBA as blacks, and therefore discrimination is not justified (AWD sort of made this point). But that is different than simply calling it racist.

It is hard to deny the fact that anything that trys to promote or celebrate white culture is treated much differently than celebrating other cultures. This isnt a complaint, its an observation. And in the case of Moose, the observation is relevant.

To me it sounds like people are saying that whites can be discriminated agianst because blacks have had it much worse. This is relative morality, and it makes it much more complicated to characterize these things.

I am reminded of the white firefighters who were denied promotions because no minorities passed the exam. One of them hired a tutor and spent most of his extra time studying. They had to take the government to court to earn what they had worked for. Todays society would never accept a law that denied minorities promotions if whites performed poorly on an exam. It would be considered "racist" but when the shoes on the other foot it is considered law.

 

Bottom line: If, the NBA ONLY allowed Blacks to play, then your arguments in defense of Mooose-nuts concept (lets forgo saying you are defending Moose-nuts, shall we?) would hold some weight, IMO. If, for instance, Moose-nuts concept were one of limiting players to a height restriction, *I* would defend it on PRINCIPLE alone. But, neither of those are the case. No. He says ONLY White people. I wonder (not a question for you, just one, in general) how "White"ness is to be determined? What is the discriminator (no pun intended) that sets THAT bar? *I* have Dutch ancestors. I wonder if *I* would qualify? Or, are we back to the "single-drop-of-blood" metric?!?!?

I see this ending badly. I predict many, many people who don't meet Moose-nuts criteria (whatever that may be) for a pure-"White" applying and being accepted simply because they "appear" White. Hmmm... Starting to sound more and more race-based, to me. Anybody else make teh same leap?

I believe I saw John Travolta on BET, just a few hours ago, so that argument is now invalidated.

HBCU's and the NAACP do not disallow non-blacks. Never have, to the best of my knowledge. If anybody has knowledge of, or, evidence to the contrary, please provide a reference link so AutoU won't lose those valuable points, as well...

AA... I have said, here, and other online forums that I do not agree with AA. No single position I have held or ever applied for has favored ME over ANYONE else, simply because of the color of my skin. I have always stood on my own merit. So, at least when engaged in discourse with me, that point is moot.

Your defense of this concept (again, notice I left Moose-nuts out of the equation) seems to hinge upon "they are doing something wrong, so, therefore we must be allowed to do so, too." Your upbringing must have been incredibly privileged for you to see things in such a myopic light.

Either way, anyway... I'm done with this. You guys have sucked ALL the fun out of it, for me.

 

I had a dream last night. It was like a bunch of chewed up sunflower seeds with the shells still on in my mouth and I couldn't get them all out. My daughter tells me this is because there's something on my mind I need to get out. I think I know what it is...

AWD, I need to apologize for calling you an a-hole. I like to conduct my life in a respectful way and stooping to name calling is not in line with that. If you want to be a condescending ***** and not even realize you're doing it, that's on you. I'll own the fact that I let it bother me and simply avoid your posts the way I avoid Obama speeches. You both seem to have a need to feel smarter than everyone else - the difference is he does it with more eloquence, which is why he's President and we're discussing things in a car forum.

In any case, I apologize. Peace be with you, brother.

 

Maybe this is a pointless post if AWD is done with the discussion because it is not "fun anymore". But it essential to have honest conversations if we want to understand and improve race relations in this country.

So here it goes...

Moose is engaging in race discrimination by definition. Something which I think should be avoided. It is harder to make the case that he is a "racist" unless you want to use the more liberal definition. But racism would suggest that he thinks that a white only league would be superior to a black only league. And to this point, there is no evidence of that. Hence, I argue that he is not a racist. This is how I have "defended" him and have no doubt been judged negatively for it by some people here.

Since I already have stated on numerous occasions that race discrimination is a poisonous idea, the weight of my argument does not depend upon defending why Moose is justified in discrimination. In fact, I would say that he is not justified and that AWD's point about whites being able to freely participate in the NBA is valid and therefore the two leagues should not be considered similar or whatever.

But the other point that I have tried to make is that discrimination frequently occurs against whites or in favor of minorities and is actaully written into the laws of our country. Often it is to provide "equal opportunity" and other times it is simply to promote a culture. But it appears to me that promoting white culture is almost always viewed as "racist" and cases where whites are unfairly discriminated against (e.g. the firefighters) society will often attempt to justify what seems to be wrong.

The point I was making about the BET is not that it prevents whites from participating, but rather that if there was the WET people would automatically assume that the motivation is "racism."

When I think about affirmative action, I realize that it is an effective way to give opportunity to those who have been denied opportunity in the past. But it is still a form of race discrimination.

It is unfortunate but understandable why people have trouble discussing these things without making it personal. I dont have all the answers and this is a very complicated topic, but I cant improve my understanding when people refuse to discuss things that make them uncomfortable. And society will not be able to make significant progress on this issue if people continue to avoid it.