Hey guys,

I know this is my first post, but I have been lurking for quite a bit and I need some help.

the car: 1999 Audi A4 1.8TQ. Very very well cared for. About 150k mi. I keep all mechanic records, lots of work done done by dealers. Last jobs were in TX - timing belt, water pump, and new clutch ($$$). I put a real nice sound system in it, in dash gps, awhile back etc. No engine mods whatsoever.

the backstory: About a week ago my check engine light came on. I immediately took it in to Audi of Alexandria. They replaced a check value and it cost me about $700. A few hours later, while running errands, the light came back on. It went back in, and the mechanic said the N80 valve went bad - replaced it for about $400. I drove away, noticed car was very sluggish. Drove some more over the weekend - definitely sluggish - no turbo kicking in - no turbo noise, no turbo power (well power for that car). No check engine light on. I took it in again, they had it for 3 work days. Finally called tell me the turbo is dead and needs to be replaced. Willing to do at a discount $1750 for part + $700 labor = $2500.

here's my concern, the turbo was completely fine before I took it to these guys. I've always had the car regularly serviced, never missed a major check up. Oil changes, all that jazz. I'm really curious about how they could have given me a car back after the last N80 valve change without a working turbo. I noticed it right away and called them almost immediately. In my mind, this means it literally died "in the shop". Because I drove it in there with working turbo, when I drove it out, after the N80 valve was replaced, there was no turbo.

I have to go down there and talk with the mechanic. I'd like to sound like I know what the hell I'm talking about. Any pointers, tips, information would be appreciated.

How does the estimate sound? It is a dealer, so I expect it to be somewhat high.

At this point, with that high mileage, is it even worth going back to a factory turbo? Should I try for one of the APR turbo upgrades and just do what's required there? Awhile back I looked at potentially chipping and turbo upgrade but decided against it. Now that I'm staring at a $2500 bill for stock replacement, I'm wondering whether I should just double down.

Any and all help is much much appreciated. Empathy is also good too!

Thanks a lot in advance.



edited to add some pics for fun, i do love the car. digging it out of 12ft of snow many years ago.

 

Man, you've been getting reamed. You could benefit first and foremost by purchasing a Ross-Tech VAG-COM cable/software for $250 or even finding someone local who has it:
http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCKII.html
Some guys will even point in the direction of a sub-$20 eBay cable and free and/or pirated software. Personally I prefer the real deal, especially since Ross-Tech offers great support for their customers.

This diagnostic cable will allow you to diagnose your own car most of the time - with so many sensors in the car usually it can pinpoint the exact cause of the problem, and Ross-Tech has a great database for looking up error codes and suggests solutions to fix the problem.

Another inexpensive tool that may be worth investing in is a boost gauge. They are easy to install, depending on your setup can be $50 or less, and will tell you how much boost pressure your engine is seeing. Besides VAG-COM, this is probably the next-best tool for a turbocharged car. Here is a picture of mine:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...0811101652.jpg

In your particular case it may be worthwhile to build a vacuum/boost leak detector, as seen here:
https://www.audiforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=154078
Lack of power/boost pressure in a turbocharged car can be something as simple as a boost leak... Definitely worth looking into especially to save money.

 

thanks man, i did figure i was way overpaying for the valve replacements, especially after i took a good long look at what was replaced. tiny, tiny valves and easy access. hell i could have done that...

will definitely look into the ross-tech. i'm not so much into the ebay for car parts myself either.

my main question to the mechanic today was about a potential leak. especially since both valves had just been replaced. the mechanic did say he had smoked it to look for leaks and found nothing. he also tested both turbo controllers and they were good. he believes the culprit is the waste gate in the turbo.

my next stop is these guys in lorton, va: http://www.ngpracing.com/store/

i know i can get a k04 for the same price as the factory turbo via the dealer. ngp gave me a phone quote of about $2400 for a complete k04 kit and install (included reprog). i also know it's going to be about double the k04 cost to get crazy (gt28).

i figure i will have ngp do a full test and verify the turbo is indeed dead. i'm hopeful, but not as optimistic as i was, after the mechanic at audi of alex told me had smoked it looking for leaks. btw, thanks for that video too. and the pictures of the boost gauge. i think that's a no-brainer for either the k04 or anything better.

in the mean time (i can't get into ngp until end of the month) i'll pick up a ross-tech and be ready for the next check engine light.

then i'll have to figure out what to do if the turbo is actually dead. i understand the k04 is a safe play, and actually adds a few hp (20-30?). going any crazier means the stock exhaust has to go - but i'm more worried about putting a garret in a car with such high mileage. (and no other mods to speak of - besides audio/video)

you wouldn't happen to have any pointers to folks that are running garret or apr in high mileage 99's would you? i've been looking and haven't found much. the mechanic at audi of alex said my best bet was k04 for basically the same reason (high mileage is no good for crazy turbo)

thanks again, much appreciated. i'll update this later if anyone cares...

 

Hi

If the car is not making any strange noises, running rich or jerking while driving, your car could be suffering from a simple software fault. A lot of times the throttle body adaption is not completed when work is undertaken on a car.
I would definately invest the ross tech software if I were you.

To sound like you know what your on about, tell your mechanic to plug their "VAG-COM" into your car a run a fault code test- looking in particular for throttle body errors.

Secondly don't let them jerk you around, if they claim there is another fault with your car, do not buy into their BS. Get a second opinion and let the mechanic know you will be doing so, that will scare them a little.

Chances are the VAG-COM test will find the fault and hopefully fix it.
lastly: DON'T pay for it. They should have done it in the first place

Hope this helps

ALSO!!! $2500 for a stock K03 turbo replacement is more than a joke. Its absolute highway robbery. One can pick up a brand new stock turbo for the 1.8T for around $400. For them to charge that much for a stock turbo is insane. Infact an eliminator turbo kit is half the price of that.

Let us know what happens with the dealer

 

I smell a skunk.

When it looks questionable it is always shady.

Find a new service person.

FYI turbo don't last forever. Nothing to say they didn't contribute to your problem.

The price they quoted and the story about giving you a discount is shady sales tactics.

Avoid.

 

Some guy just had an 1800 quote for a new turbo, sound better than what you have. i Believe the reason for such a high price is the new turbo going in is under warranty and they cost almost a Grand alone. You can always go the DIY route and make it under 500 and go bigger and faster. You can verify your tubo is dead now if you have the car, go drive it does it sound like you have a supercharger whine? Turbos will whine when "dead" and you will notice it.

 

When the wastegate flap snaps off the turbo, you wont see any smoke, and may not even get a check engine light. There will be no boost and the car will move like molasses on a cold day. When this happens, you need a new turbo.

I'm not sticking up for anyone, but it's not the shop's "fault" that is broke.... its the 150k miles on your odometer that did all the work. I have had a car lose boost on a test drive due to a failed component that was "fine" before. It is very possible it literally broke as you drove away.

As far as upgrading the car, scan the forum and do some research. A larger turbo will require fueling, tuning, intercooler, hardware, and exhaust. For a budget-friendly option, check Shokan for a local yard for a used one, or gpopshop for a hybrid rebuild.

 

GTRS Eliminator with hardware is about 1200-1500. You also need a tune (500), fueling (400), intercooler (800), MAF (200), turbo inlet (200), downpipe (300), cat/testpipe (300), exhaust (800), clutch/flywheel (1000), and a few other things. Plus labor. Do the math.

Also, please post a link or a Company address to where we can purchase genuine KKK K03 Turbochargers for $400. New, these sell for 1200-1500. Used 250-450. Rebuilts start at 500 and get get up to 1000 if "upgraded." Not trying to be that Guy, but you really don't have your facts straight.

$2500 is a dealer price, and although expensive, should have a 2 year warranty. An independent will likely be less expensive, but you'll need a specialist that knows what they are doing.

 

Another route you can go instead of BT (Big Turbo) is an upgraded small turbo. There is a company called FrankenTurbo that makes a K04/K03 hybrid which has been optimized for performance. In transverse cars, some guys have seen ~250hp out of this daily-driveable setup. In longitudinal (our) cars there isn't as much software support and due to the general AWD nature of these cars around 230AWHP is more common.

FrankenTurbo is actually what I'm going with. It's $1100 for the kit which includes turbo, turbo inlet pipe (TIP), exhaust manifold, and a new diverter valve and MAF are optional.

I've already got a FMIC, and have an 034 Motorsport 3" high-flow cat on order, along with new oxygen sensors, and all the gaskets and hardware. Soon after installing the turbo kit I'll get new injectors, fuel pressure regulator, and GIAC PC16 tuning for the K04 to put me around 210-220WHP (I'm front-wheel drive).

 

Ah man...you have basically not only confirmed the turbo is dead, but you have also confirmed that the mechanic at audi of alex was no bs'er.

I don't see any smoke. The car totally moves like molasses. There is no check engine light. There is no "whine" (as the other poster mentioned), nor is there the typical turbo pitch.

The audi of alex mechanic felt waste gate, and based on what you just said, and the symptoms of the car - my money is now on a dead turbo with broken waste gate.

So although dealerships are obviously high priced, it seems like these guys did their job. He isolated it down, and got the problem correct. I guess I just have horrible luck driving away a car from a dealsership after $1100 worth of work only to have the turbo fail.

I have read this excellent sticky on turbo upgrades and such: https://www.audiforums.com/forum/b5-models-69/1-8t-turbo-upgrade-information-93439/

It made it much easier for me to understand all the "extras" (as you indicate above) that are needed for each type of turbo upgrade. Obviously the k04 has the least amount of extras required (I note that the poster highly recco exhaust though). From my phone call with NGP in Lorton, VA, they indicated their price for the new k04 and all required extras with install was about $2400. I will need to confirm with them that all extras are indeed included, and inquire as to whether any of the other "aggressive" items are included in the kit - like the bigger injectors, an adjustable FPR, FMIC, and tuning. I doubt the bigger injectors, FPR, or FMIC are included. He did specifically mention oil, reprogramming, and tuning.

The GT28RS is what I consider to be the next incremental step up. I'm not so much concerned with all the extras there, or even the cost, to be honest. I'm more concerned with the wear and tear on the rest of the car. Reliability, if you will, is my concern there. Because, yeah, I agree, a turbo failing after 150k mi isn't unheard of. But if I go slap some garrett in there, how much trouble am I really asking for?

Thanks a lot for your post. Without me even prompting you, you nailed the symptoms and joined the audi of alex mechanic on the waste gate failure.

edited to add: I consider GT28RS to be the next step up, and not the eliminator GTRS because it seems like they basically require the same addons, except for perhaps the exhaust manifold. But then again, the poster there seems to suggest those are needed anyway on the GTRS. The GT28RS does seem to need engine mounts and clutch though. Fortunately I just had the clutch redone with a performance aftermarket (I need to get the make/model of that clutch from the mech in TX though). Anyway, just wanted to make that clear. Perhaps the GTRS Elim is really the next step up from k04, but in my mind it's a sort of a half step. Perhaps a slight cost savings between the GT28RS and the GTRS, but not much it seems, and they both basically require the same addons.