2.8 power
#31
09-11-2008, 10:17 PM
Listen, I got a buddy who's family's in the business of turbos. They build sick turbo muscle cars and dragsters, they also run the Flashlight drags in my area (Zeilienople woot!). I'm sure if I wanted to hack **** up he could fit a turbo wherever. He's actually been nagging at me to run a twin turbo set-up. In fact thinking about it now, I could fit a decent size remote turbo in the area where my resonator was before I cut it out. It's just that something in me doesn't want to do forced induction.
#32
09-11-2008, 10:26 PM
On the subject of performance and staying n/a, well it's a pretty tried and true formula for any ICE. Make it breath better, more air in means more fuel.
You will want to decide where and how you want your power delivered and accordingly size a free flow intake and exhaust.
The area that will probably give you a lot of power gains is getting an engine management system that will control fuel and spark timing and get a more performance tune on it than comes from the factory. I'm sure there is a lot left on the table in there if you can tap it.
You can do headers, high flow cat or cat delete and low restriction mufflers.
Doing any head work is probably not going to pay dividends unless you also do a different set of cams. Not sure if any are mass produced, from the sounds of it not. But you can always get a set of factory cams and send them to crower or one of the other big guys and have them reground. More than likely you would need to come up with a set of specs for this yourself though. Lift, duration, lobe profiles, center line, overlap etc etc. You would want to stay close to stock lift if you don't want to have to get into doing a new valve train.
If you are really dedicated to n/a you could rebuild the bottom end with slightly higher compression pistons, say 11:1, and do a lightweight and very tightly balanced rotating assembly.
I don't think you are going to challenge 2jz numbers but there is power to be had.
You could probably get 20whp just with a decent engine management system and tune. The cost....who knows? $1500 $2000? Depends on what EMS you go with, how much work it is to integrate it and who you get a tune done by.
Yes I left off small stuff like lightweight crank pulley and lightweight flywheel.
You will want to decide where and how you want your power delivered and accordingly size a free flow intake and exhaust.
The area that will probably give you a lot of power gains is getting an engine management system that will control fuel and spark timing and get a more performance tune on it than comes from the factory. I'm sure there is a lot left on the table in there if you can tap it.
You can do headers, high flow cat or cat delete and low restriction mufflers.
Doing any head work is probably not going to pay dividends unless you also do a different set of cams. Not sure if any are mass produced, from the sounds of it not. But you can always get a set of factory cams and send them to crower or one of the other big guys and have them reground. More than likely you would need to come up with a set of specs for this yourself though. Lift, duration, lobe profiles, center line, overlap etc etc. You would want to stay close to stock lift if you don't want to have to get into doing a new valve train.
If you are really dedicated to n/a you could rebuild the bottom end with slightly higher compression pistons, say 11:1, and do a lightweight and very tightly balanced rotating assembly.
I don't think you are going to challenge 2jz numbers but there is power to be had.
You could probably get 20whp just with a decent engine management system and tune. The cost....who knows? $1500 $2000? Depends on what EMS you go with, how much work it is to integrate it and who you get a tune done by.
Yes I left off small stuff like lightweight crank pulley and lightweight flywheel.
#33
09-11-2008, 10:40 PM
Well I would agree that it was ignorance on my part if I were saying I knew how to do it w/o having looked in there. Right not, I have no idea where I would put it. I'm simply saying I'm confident there is room for the snail I am thinking of based on past experiences. At this point it is all just academic as I won't be sinking any money into performance until I get a couple other things sorted. Now if someone wanted me to do it for them I probably would do it for just more than the cost of parts.
There are a few things I would take off your list.
If you are street driving in a halfway responsible fashion there would be no need to do brakes or suspension.
and you would be responsible with all that added power? all it takes is one time to wreck the car and the stock parts are not meant for that kind of power
If you are keeping the boost under, say 10-12psi you can skip internals unless they really are that weak. I would bet they would take 10psi.
kinda pointless to spend all that money and keep it at 10psi. you could get that out of a supercharger for half the price
There really would be no reason to do headers.
then what would you mount the turbo to? you would need custom headers (aka exhaust manifold)
All this stuff is fair game but that is all above and beyond what you would need for a basic kit.
This is the list I would start with for ~5-6psi
engine management
turbo
up & down pipes
charge piping + silicone couplers
intake piping
filter
worn gear clamps (t-bolts if you feel)
various hardware (nuts, bolts, etc)
Maybe $3500 + cost of a tune depending on what kinda gear you want to buy. Say $4000 in total?
standalone software alone is 1-2k. turbo and all custom plumbing is another 4 grand at least. getting it tuned is probly another grand (dyno time is not cheap). your seriously underestimating the cost
To run 8-12 psi
external wastegate + plumbing
intercooler
injectors
fuel pump
clutch
larger radiator
trans cooler for auto cars.
maybe an engine oil cooler
Add another $1500-2000 maybe?
add gauges at whatever point you like.
water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, boost, egt, fuel pressure
figure $5-600 for gauges
so without an engine rebuild your already at close to 10k. you could build a vr6-t for that cost, and have way more power
Then rebuild the engine with 9-9.5:1 compression, forged connecting rods and pistons and shoot the moon for anything over a bar. ~17psi probably safe on pump gas.
sky is the limit on this one.
not really. the block isn't all that strong. i'd have to do more research but auditech had a post a while back explaining it better. i'll see if i can find it
All in all you could probably run ~8-10 psi on a modest turbo setup for $5-6grand and have in the neighborhood of 275-300whp. Maybe more but I am using low efficiencies for everything.
Guessing the aforementioned s/c kit is good to ~210-220whp for the same 5k??
I've put together and fabbed up custom s/c kits for rx8's, I have a pretty decent idea of what can be done. I'm not some 17 y/o talking out of my *** with no experience.
There are a few things I would take off your list.
If you are street driving in a halfway responsible fashion there would be no need to do brakes or suspension.
and you would be responsible with all that added power? all it takes is one time to wreck the car and the stock parts are not meant for that kind of power
If you are keeping the boost under, say 10-12psi you can skip internals unless they really are that weak. I would bet they would take 10psi.
kinda pointless to spend all that money and keep it at 10psi. you could get that out of a supercharger for half the price
There really would be no reason to do headers.
then what would you mount the turbo to? you would need custom headers (aka exhaust manifold)
All this stuff is fair game but that is all above and beyond what you would need for a basic kit.
This is the list I would start with for ~5-6psi
engine management
turbo
up & down pipes
charge piping + silicone couplers
intake piping
filter
worn gear clamps (t-bolts if you feel)
various hardware (nuts, bolts, etc)
Maybe $3500 + cost of a tune depending on what kinda gear you want to buy. Say $4000 in total?
standalone software alone is 1-2k. turbo and all custom plumbing is another 4 grand at least. getting it tuned is probly another grand (dyno time is not cheap). your seriously underestimating the cost
To run 8-12 psi
external wastegate + plumbing
intercooler
injectors
fuel pump
clutch
larger radiator
trans cooler for auto cars.
maybe an engine oil cooler
Add another $1500-2000 maybe?
add gauges at whatever point you like.
water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, boost, egt, fuel pressure
figure $5-600 for gauges
so without an engine rebuild your already at close to 10k. you could build a vr6-t for that cost, and have way more power
Then rebuild the engine with 9-9.5:1 compression, forged connecting rods and pistons and shoot the moon for anything over a bar. ~17psi probably safe on pump gas.
sky is the limit on this one.
not really. the block isn't all that strong. i'd have to do more research but auditech had a post a while back explaining it better. i'll see if i can find it
All in all you could probably run ~8-10 psi on a modest turbo setup for $5-6grand and have in the neighborhood of 275-300whp. Maybe more but I am using low efficiencies for everything.
Guessing the aforementioned s/c kit is good to ~210-220whp for the same 5k??
I've put together and fabbed up custom s/c kits for rx8's, I have a pretty decent idea of what can be done. I'm not some 17 y/o talking out of my *** with no experience.
#34
09-11-2008, 10:59 PM
Plus, while the VW is a fine car, it's not the same car as the Audi. It's just not.
If we are talking about what other cars would be best to buy to turbo/mod neither of these would be at the top of the list either in gains, absolute power potential or bang for your buck.
Lets try to keep in mind we are working within the confines of " I already have this car, what can I do to it?"
Not sure which vr6 you are talking about but if either of the ones outlined in this wiki i don't see why you say it would produce more power? compression is pretty much the same, as well as displacement. I can only assume cam profiles are similar. The only thing I can see is that maybe the "internals" on the audi motor are not forged and would give up the ghost due to strees before you would get to the limits of pump fuel on 10:1 compression, say 12psi? Which is possible.
http://www.gti-vr6.net/wiki/index.ph...al_Information
Last edited by SuperSquid; 09-11-2008 at 11:04 PM.
#36
09-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Send me $3grand. I'll have it done running tuned with dyno plots by the time the snow flies.
Send me $10 and I will have a production kit ready and tested,say 20k miles, by the beginning of next summer.
Send me $10 and I will have a production kit ready and tested,say 20k miles, by the beginning of next summer.
#38
09-11-2008, 11:14 PM
You send 3, I'll put one in and for $4k one could have a 5-6psi unintercoold turbo, yes. Easy. It helps that I don't have to farm out much of the labor. I don't know why it's so unbelievable.
http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/Vie...eIndexID=51709
They are using the same s/c (Eaton MP62) as PES sells in their kit offering the same boost level for $5000. There are numerous examples throughout the aftermarket industry of ~$3000 low boost, unintercooled kits. That unit at dealer cost is ~$7-800. $900 tops for a small shop/low volume.
Things in the Audi world get jacked up because, well, you drive an audi. You are supposed to have more money. Look at the price of things for the BMW and Porsche community. Even more expensive. God forbid you want more power in your Mercedes!
http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/Vie...eIndexID=51709
They are using the same s/c (Eaton MP62) as PES sells in their kit offering the same boost level for $5000. There are numerous examples throughout the aftermarket industry of ~$3000 low boost, unintercooled kits. That unit at dealer cost is ~$7-800. $900 tops for a small shop/low volume.
Things in the Audi world get jacked up because, well, you drive an audi. You are supposed to have more money. Look at the price of things for the BMW and Porsche community. Even more expensive. God forbid you want more power in your Mercedes!
Last edited by SuperSquid; 09-11-2008 at 11:18 PM.
#39
09-11-2008, 11:17 PM
It won't be cheaper to go buy another car for those that already have this car and have it free and clear.
Plus, while the VW is a fine car, it's not the same car as the Audi. It's just not.
If we are talking about what other cars would be best to buy to turbo/mod neither of these would be at the top of the list either in gains, absolute power potential or bang for your buck.
Lets try to keep in mind we are working within the confines of " I already have this car, what can I do to it?"
Not sure which vr6 you are talking about but if either of the ones outlined in this wiki i don't see why you say it would produce more power? compression is pretty much the same, as well as displacement. I can only assume cam profiles are similar. The only thing I can see is that maybe the "internals" on the audi motor are not forged and would give up the ghost due to strees before you would get to the limits of pump fuel on 10:1 compression, say 12psi? Which is possible.
http://www.gti-vr6.net/wiki/index.ph...al_Information
Plus, while the VW is a fine car, it's not the same car as the Audi. It's just not.
If we are talking about what other cars would be best to buy to turbo/mod neither of these would be at the top of the list either in gains, absolute power potential or bang for your buck.
Lets try to keep in mind we are working within the confines of " I already have this car, what can I do to it?"
Not sure which vr6 you are talking about but if either of the ones outlined in this wiki i don't see why you say it would produce more power? compression is pretty much the same, as well as displacement. I can only assume cam profiles are similar. The only thing I can see is that maybe the "internals" on the audi motor are not forged and would give up the ghost due to strees before you would get to the limits of pump fuel on 10:1 compression, say 12psi? Which is possible.
http://www.gti-vr6.net/wiki/index.ph...al_Information
and the vr6 responds to boost WAAAAAAY better than the 2.8. the pistons are aligned in a completely different way. search 034 vr6-t. there running 40psi and putting out really good numbers with only a 12v. a 24v with the right tuning and turbo will put out over 1000hp.
#40
09-11-2008, 11:20 PM
who said anything about getting a new car. i was talking about dropping a vr6-t into your a4. 034 motorsports has the parts you need to drop it in, and if you search i've posted the whole parts list and cost into doing the swap. its under 10k. and you can even offset the cost by selling your 2.8
and the vr6 responds to boost WAAAAAAY better than the 2.8. the pistons are aligned in a completely different way. search 034 vr6-t. there running 40psi and putting out really good numbers with only a 12v. a 24v with the right tuning and turbo will put out over 1000hp.
and the vr6 responds to boost WAAAAAAY better than the 2.8. the pistons are aligned in a completely different way. search 034 vr6-t. there running 40psi and putting out really good numbers with only a 12v. a 24v with the right tuning and turbo will put out over 1000hp.
under 10grand? hahaha. I'm talking about half of that.
For that you might as well take your money and put a down payment on a better/faster car.
The pistons are aligned differently? Please, do explain.