Valley Pan Gasket; Head Gaskets
#21
No question is 'silly' as far as I'm concerned. Better to ask and get it right or be reassured.
BTW, The cyliner order is as follows:
Firewall
------------
3-6
2-5
1-4
-----------
Front
The coil order is:
Engine
-----------
3-5
2-4
1-6
-----------
Front
See the difference?
The coil order has nothing to do with cylinder order. The coils are ordered in relation to the firing order; 1-4-3-6-2-5. And, since each coil fires 2 cylinders at the same time in what is known as a 'waste spark' system, the number 4 & 5 wires are swapped. So the 1/6 coil fires but only the #1 cylinder is closing in on TDC AND on the compression stroke so the spark lights it off. #6 is on the exhuast stroke and thus the spark to it goes to 'waste' and does nothing. Then the 2/4 coil fires, but only #4 is ready on the compression stroke and #2 spark goes to waste. Then the 3/5 coil fires with #5 spark wasted. The process then repeats but with the prior firing/wasted sparks reversed; 6-2-5 lighting thier cylinders off, 1-4-3 wasted. This is why when we lose a coil the motor runs very, very rough - you lose 2 cylinders, not just one.
Anyway, I explained this becuase the thread I posted to had peeps who were very confused by this and thus where listing the cylinder order wrong. And, I noticed it also in your pics.
PS - any reason why you think the head gaskets are bad?
BTW, The cyliner order is as follows:
Firewall
------------
3-6
2-5
1-4
-----------
Front
The coil order is:
Engine
-----------
3-5
2-4
1-6
-----------
Front
See the difference?
The coil order has nothing to do with cylinder order. The coils are ordered in relation to the firing order; 1-4-3-6-2-5. And, since each coil fires 2 cylinders at the same time in what is known as a 'waste spark' system, the number 4 & 5 wires are swapped. So the 1/6 coil fires but only the #1 cylinder is closing in on TDC AND on the compression stroke so the spark lights it off. #6 is on the exhuast stroke and thus the spark to it goes to 'waste' and does nothing. Then the 2/4 coil fires, but only #4 is ready on the compression stroke and #2 spark goes to waste. Then the 3/5 coil fires with #5 spark wasted. The process then repeats but with the prior firing/wasted sparks reversed; 6-2-5 lighting thier cylinders off, 1-4-3 wasted. This is why when we lose a coil the motor runs very, very rough - you lose 2 cylinders, not just one.
Anyway, I explained this becuase the thread I posted to had peeps who were very confused by this and thus where listing the cylinder order wrong. And, I noticed it also in your pics.
PS - any reason why you think the head gaskets are bad?
Last edited by Midniteoyl; 04-15-2009 at 08:14 PM.
#22
No question is 'silly' as far as I'm concerned. Better to ask and get it right or be reassured.
BTW, The cyliner order is as follows:
Firewall
------------
3-4
2-5
1-6
-----------
Front
The coil order is:
Engine
-----------
3-5
2-4
1-6
-----------
Front
See the difference?
The coil order has nothing to do with cylinder order. The coils are ordered in relation to the firing order; 1-4-3-6-2-5.
.................................................. ................................................
PS - any reason why you think the head gaskets are bad?
BTW, The cyliner order is as follows:
Firewall
------------
3-4
2-5
1-6
-----------
Front
The coil order is:
Engine
-----------
3-5
2-4
1-6
-----------
Front
See the difference?
The coil order has nothing to do with cylinder order. The coils are ordered in relation to the firing order; 1-4-3-6-2-5.
.................................................. ................................................
PS - any reason why you think the head gaskets are bad?
Well, I suspect that the head gaskets are bad because I lose coolant, and that is not externally. I visually kept tabs on the possible "external" leak points (hoses) the few times I drove it, but I didn't detect any.
The oil is not foamy, but I changed it immediately after I purchased the car back in December, and it only has about 150 miles on it.
However, there's pooled oil under the manifold (valley pan area?) and the valve cover gasket didn't really leak on that side. The oil is expelled over there from somewhere, so I suspect the head gaskets, as the head exterior walls are really sludgy from that point on down.
I may be wrong, but since I started changing the TB, WP, T-stat, and the valve cover gaskets, I would rather change the head gaskets as well. After all the car has 153,000 miles.
It is better to change them now, rather than be sorry later. It maybe a painstaking job, but I'm pretty sure it will be worth it.
It is also a good occasion to take account of where everything is, in terms of sensors, vacuum hoses (I'll have to replace quite a few of'em as they're weathered pretty good), etc.
#23
After all the car has 153,000 miles.
It is better to change them now, rather than be sorry later
It is better to change them now, rather than be sorry later
I wish I could physically see what you do to determine better, but, the water loss could be from several places.. if your oils not turning milky or your not blowing it out the tail pipe, take a look down the side of the block to see if its running out there, if its no to all of these, I'd call it good. Did you check your overflow/fill tank? My coolant level sensor went off a few days ago and I found the bottom of the tank wet. I'm gonna pull it out and see if it has a hole, or if it leaks around the sensor. Apparently these things get pinhole leaks very frequently. The other places to look for water leaks is the radiator between the rad and the condensor, and the block freeze plugs.
#24
well, I experienced some smoke when starting the car, but the weather didn't really warm up until recently.
For the few times I drove it, I couldn't stick my hand in fire to say exactly that it was weather-related steam or smoke.
However, the rough running would be a sign of blown head gasket(s). I could probably just pull the spark plugs and check for any trace of coolant... I don't know if it is possible for the plugs to have the threaded end rusted from moisture coming from "inside" the block (condensation due to transfer of moisture), but quite a few of the plugs have rust on'em.
I'll change the gaskets, no matter how difficult it would turn out to be. If only this f&&$##$ weather would cooperate (the past two days it rained, so I wasn't able to do anything)...
For the few times I drove it, I couldn't stick my hand in fire to say exactly that it was weather-related steam or smoke.
However, the rough running would be a sign of blown head gasket(s). I could probably just pull the spark plugs and check for any trace of coolant... I don't know if it is possible for the plugs to have the threaded end rusted from moisture coming from "inside" the block (condensation due to transfer of moisture), but quite a few of the plugs have rust on'em.
I'll change the gaskets, no matter how difficult it would turn out to be. If only this f&&$##$ weather would cooperate (the past two days it rained, so I wasn't able to do anything)...
#28
LOL, Zippy... I would do it, man.
I'm in Illinois, Jim.
Today was a cloudy and cold day, and I thought it will rain again. However, after getting home, I decided to go outside (around 5:30)regardless, since the mechanical "virus" got a hang of me.
Anyway, I finally got the Manifold out. Here a few pics of what's under and "around"...Holy shiznit....
Under the manifold (Valley Pan):
-
The driver side bank's spark plugs (as said before, Autolite -good God...):
And one of those 3 spark plugs, after I pulled the wires out:
How ya like them apples?
I'm in Illinois, Jim.
Today was a cloudy and cold day, and I thought it will rain again. However, after getting home, I decided to go outside (around 5:30)regardless, since the mechanical "virus" got a hang of me.
Anyway, I finally got the Manifold out. Here a few pics of what's under and "around"...Holy shiznit....
Under the manifold (Valley Pan):
-
The driver side bank's spark plugs (as said before, Autolite -good God...):
And one of those 3 spark plugs, after I pulled the wires out:
How ya like them apples?
Last edited by chefro; 04-15-2009 at 12:49 AM.
#29
Still dont really see the head gasket problem... That oil seem to be coming from a really leaky valley pan gasket. Dont know the history of the car, but it really seems like it was sitting for a long time. I have a '78 Magnum here that has sat for 8 years, maybe longer now. When I moved it 4-5 years ago, I pulled the plugs and had a really hard time as the spark plugs were about corroded away. Yes, they can and do rust inside the chamber if not driven. Moisture still gets in through the intake and exhaust. The rough running is prolly due to the bad plugs and crap in the cylinders from sitting.
However, your almost there, so might as well go to town. TIP: Do NOT delay in getting the head bolts out once you start. This thing is prolly old enough that if you leave a bolt or two in there for a day or two, it could warp, however slightly. You should prolly start hitting them with PB Blaster now and every day until you get to them. Having a good rubber mallet around would be a good idea.
Lemme see the cylinders and head chambers when the heads are off.
However, your almost there, so might as well go to town. TIP: Do NOT delay in getting the head bolts out once you start. This thing is prolly old enough that if you leave a bolt or two in there for a day or two, it could warp, however slightly. You should prolly start hitting them with PB Blaster now and every day until you get to them. Having a good rubber mallet around would be a good idea.
Lemme see the cylinders and head chambers when the heads are off.
#30
Still dont really see the head gasket problem... That oil seem to be coming from a really leaky valley pan gasket. Dont know the history of the car, but it really seems like it was sitting for a long time. I have a '78 Magnum here that has sat for 8 years, maybe longer now. When I moved it 4-5 years ago, I pulled the plugs and had a really hard time as the spark plugs were about corroded away. Yes, they can and do rust inside the chamber if not driven. Moisture still gets in through the intake and exhaust. The rough running is prolly due to the bad plugs and crap in the cylinders from sitting.
However, your almost there, so might as well go to town. TIP: Do NOT delay in getting the head bolts out once you start. This thing is prolly old enough that if you leave a bolt or two in there for a day or two, it could warp, however slightly. You should prolly start hitting them with PB Blaster now and every day until you get to them. Having a good rubber mallet around would be a good idea.
However, your almost there, so might as well go to town. TIP: Do NOT delay in getting the head bolts out once you start. This thing is prolly old enough that if you leave a bolt or two in there for a day or two, it could warp, however slightly. You should prolly start hitting them with PB Blaster now and every day until you get to them. Having a good rubber mallet around would be a good idea.
Well, actually is not only oil in there. I tested the liquid in between the thumb and index fingers for oil consistency and actually is mixed with coolant.
I don't know exactly how coolant got in there other than via head gasket, since the only other susceptible place is the top of the water pump gasket. That didn't show signs of leaking at all when I took it out.
Don't know what else to think.
It may be a high probability the head gaskets are fine, but since I went this far, I'll change'm anyway.
I'll probably see tomorrow how they look when taking the heads off; at least that's the plan if nothing else comes up. The head bolts need be replaced anyway.
By the way, is polishing the top of the intake manifold of any beneficial outcome (performance wise), or people do it for "show"?
Yes, SIR!